07 EN: On The Right Track - Railway Brake Pads By Miba Friction Group

00:00:05: The friction division is since in the year of nineteen seventy-five, but the railway.

00:00:10: that's really a start up character.

00:00:12: Small team new markets and new products.

00:00:15: we are shaping the future also for Miva

00:00:20: One wheel set maximum load is twenty two tons And when you have one wheelset there will be two discs which is typical configuration.

00:00:32: Every disc must be able to break roughly ten or eleven tons of braked mass in a time.

00:00:40: And well, that's clearly huge mass and energy... ...and when you go up to three hundred and fifty kilometers per hour normally it makes the limit on discs very close to six hundred

00:00:57: degrees.

00:00:58: Welcome to a new episode of MIBA Inside, the tech podcast from MIBA for all MIBA colleagues and everyone who is passionate about technologies for a cleaner planet.

00:01:09: Here we talk what you normally don't see – technology inside engines, trains ships wind turbines hydroelectric plants power grids much more.

00:01:20: Our experts at MIBA explain how our components help make customers' products and applications safer more reliable and energy efficient.

00:01:31: And they also show why we are among the technological world leaders in many of these specialized fields!

00:01:40: In today's episode, it is all about a component you trust with your life on when travelling by train – The brakes….

00:01:48: …and about innovative braking systems for trains how to work what they have to withstand... ...and why those from MIBA are among most innovative in their industry.

00:01:59: My guests today are Andreas Promberger.

00:02:02: He is head of R&D in the Mieber Friction Division, hello welcome!

00:02:07: And Roberto Poffelli.

00:02:08: he's regional unit leader for exactly these braking systems and he's located in Italy.

00:02:13: Hi there

00:02:14: Hello good morning

00:02:15: Nice to have you here.

00:02:17: my name is Autron Chandel.

00:02:18: I'm happy to guide through this podcast.

00:02:21: At the beginning.

00:02:22: we want get know both a little better.

00:02:24: So few quick questions How long have you been at Mieber and how did it get there?

00:02:33: Andreas, do you want to start?

00:02:35: Thank You.

00:02:36: I'm with me ever since thirteen years.

00:02:39: i was working for a german oem before And always had.

00:02:44: my center of living was in upper austria.

00:02:48: after four years To be in germany i had the feeling now It's enough and At that time i know me but not really exactly and i wrote to the head of people in culture, we are Xing.

00:03:02: This was my official application and then I came to Friction Division

00:03:10: And you've been here ever since?

00:03:12: Ever Since!

00:03:13: I had several stations there.

00:03:15: Also most exciting one is that i'm a small unit with question what could be future component for Mieber?

00:03:27: nothing to do with friction and out of that the cooling, so the battery cooling came out.

00:03:33: And at the end a new division, The Battery Division.

00:03:36: but I stayed with Friction Division because my stomach feeling was saying we have so much opportunities here in the railway especially those are generally in friction.

00:03:48: uh...that i will stay here and try my best.

00:03:53: What kind of education you had?

00:03:54: what parts were there?

00:03:56: I was at a technical education HDL we call in Austria, in Brauna.

00:04:02: It was focusing on software development and after that i realized software maybe is not dead what i want to do in the future And then decided to have automotive engineering In grads... ...and that combination of softwares skills & mechanical background was the decisive element at the end, then I came to the German OEM.

00:04:31: Roberto what about you?

00:04:33: How long have you been with MIBA and what brought you here

00:04:36: ?

00:04:36: Well i'm in MIBA since roughly two and a half years... ...I've been employed directly as a key account manager basically following the railway business because in MIB I understood they decided six years so far.

00:05:00: Well, previously I didn't know Miba at all only a bit because in my previous job i was a friction pair product leader and we always were looking for the competition And Miba was pop-up last year.

00:05:21: that showed me as new competitor.

00:05:25: And well, this is why I know Mibba.

00:05:27: Then when Robert Töller actually asked me if he wanted to join for me it was a good occasion.

00:05:36: let's say restart funny job and I accepted to be here.

00:05:44: What kind of education do you have?

00:05:46: I am a mechanical engineer following clearly the Italian university generic, no any specialization.

00:05:56: And after that I started directly working in the railway since so far twenty three years starting as a service manager.

00:06:08: So i was basically trying to solve and actually solving problems of breaking systems In general then became designer.

00:06:21: I have been working in R&D as a Boogie brake designer.

00:06:25: So, designing brake discs, braking units other braking devices of the vehicles including the pneumatic system and after that i followed test & development in the dynamometric benches up to becoming product leader at end my career.

00:06:48: let me say

00:06:50: So you're a true railway person?

00:06:53: Yes, yes.

00:06:53: Actually it was my first and last love in terms of application!

00:07:02: You two Railway people do have actually your favorite train or a favorite route track?

00:07:09: I think that is going to Stuttgart because when i was at the German OEM i traveled on a weekly base from Salzburg to Stuttgart, so I have a lot of memories back and yeah that's my favorite one.

00:07:28: And yours?

00:07:29: i bet there are beautiful train tracks.

00:07:33: Actually not!

00:07:34: To be honest where I grew up today It's the railway.

00:07:41: support is not that much.

00:07:42: So we normally go by car almost everywhere, but for business reasons often I take very high-speed vehicles which goes from Milan to south of Italy Naples or Salerno and ETR one thousand is basically my favorite vehicle and routes Basically.

00:08:02: How

00:08:02: fast does it go?

00:08:04: in Italy, three hundred but it is supposed to run up to three hundred and sixty kilometers per hour.

00:08:09: Oh

00:08:10: that's some speed right?

00:08:11: Yeah nice running!

00:08:14: What fascinates you about the railway sector?

00:08:17: yes after twenty-three years I can tell that The Railway Sector is one of the most interesting businesses In general because You find several things.

00:08:31: there is always something that you don't expect.

00:08:33: There's always something happening, a new problem or trouble to solve and I expected it would never stop like this.

00:08:46: in twenty years.

00:08:47: every time there will be something new.

00:08:50: for me remember back when i started studying i could decide either go into automotive engineering after some basic studying, or I would go to the railway.

00:09:06: And at that time i clearly decided to go for automotive because automotive is so fascinating you know?

00:09:12: The cars... So much emotions in the cars and now being also ten years plus in the automotive industry ,I really like the railway Because of several reasons.

00:09:25: .The first one is this cleaner planet mission what we have here It clearly contributes to that.

00:09:34: And it's also fascinating, you go nearly four hundred kilometers per hour and sitting in the bistro drinking a small beer for example and eating something That is really cool You know?

00:09:46: That kind of lifestyle.

00:09:47: now The product itself has two stand forces temperatures minus thirty degrees upto plus forty degrees, really amazing also from a technical standpoint.

00:10:03: Today we're talking about the railway braking systems of MIBA Freakstech in Røytam Before we get into the MIBA components specifically maybe very simple question for you how does it train actually brake?

00:10:17: How come does a train comes to a sail stand?

00:10:20: Yes I take this question.

00:10:24: Well...I will make long story short.

00:10:28: The train breaks safely.

00:10:31: That's the most important

00:10:32: thing, so

00:10:34: there is basically no chance that a train is not stopping in the proper distance.

00:10:39: but to give just bit of few details normally systems are pneumatics and it is passive system.

00:10:49: I mean the air is not applying brakes or releasing them.

00:10:55: This is simply because as soon something happens and the air is not available, The trains must stop.

00:11:03: So everything is designed in that way to be safe And then going out of the pneumatic.

00:11:12: Normally the trains are equipped with brake discs.

00:11:16: so it's basically like cars With braking calipers which apply the brake pads that we are supposed to supply, to generate the heat who dissipates energy of a vehicle and stop it.

00:11:36: So this is basically how a train system works.

00:11:41: We have to say on top of these most vehicles today are braking as well with an electro-dynamic brake so engines also work as brakes.

00:11:53: So if you consider a level of energy to brake, normally the seventy percent is braking by engines and thirty percent is breaking by mechanical brakes.

00:12:09: But the mechanical breaks are supposed in case the engine isn't working to stop full train.

00:12:18: so the sizing and dimensioning of all the brakes is done that way.

00:12:22: So for train brakes, there are incredible forces at work that the brakes have to withstand.

00:12:28: Can you specify in terms of numbers or heat?

00:12:34: Yes basically There are different vehicles so the energies can be much different from a metro or very high speed vehicle.

00:12:46: but To give you reference keep in mind one wheel set Maximum load is twenty two tons and when in one wheel set you have Two discs, which is a typical configuration.

00:13:03: Every disc must be able to break roughly ten or eleven tones of braked mass In a time.

00:13:10: And well that's clearly huge mass and the huge energy.

00:13:15: and When you go up to three hundred and fifty kilometers per hour normally it makes the limit of the discs and on the other hand, in the pads very close to six hundred degrees.

00:13:29: Six hundred degrees

00:13:31: Celsius?

00:13:31: Wow!

00:13:32: Which is basically the limit for material because you can take every steel you want from the disc but after that temperature the material will be gone And then mechanical performances are no more available.

00:13:52: So that's basically the physical limit of vehicles, there are some technologies which goes in the carbon fiber or carbon ceramic brake discs but so far they've never been able to be successful.

00:14:07: it is too complicated to apply.

00:14:10: I think The energy density That' s most decisive criteria and we're using Sinter for our fridge material and the heat conductivity is really good material property.

00:14:26: And therefore we can leverage this material to lower temperature because at end it's maximum temperature, when you have a good heat conductivity ,you bring down temperature.

00:14:40: You use copper?

00:14:42: Copper based fridge materials the metrics, and then in there embedded some friction components which addresses NVH where TCO total cost of ownership.

00:14:57: So these are the advantages of the MIBA or Friction Brake parts?

00:15:02: What other advantages are?

00:15:03: they're

00:15:04: first off all.

00:15:05: we have two of them.

00:15:07: We have the FIGSTAR Which is focused for trains that go to a hundred kilometers per hour And then we have the flex star, which is addressing high-speed trains up to four hundred kilometers.

00:15:25: When you look on costs for companies who are using the trains more than twenty five percent comes out of breaks because break is varying and at some point they go into service center.

00:15:42: if you can achieve friction combination which can run longer, you can reduce the costs for operating trains.

00:15:52: So the TCO we are calling – The Total Cost of Ownership is a critical element and we're using materials where I think that it's possible to run longer than in competition.

00:16:06: And how often do you have to change these pads or the braking systems?

00:16:12: Well, in very high-speed vehicles the replacement of the pads is every once a year.

00:16:19: Let me say depending on some vehicles... Some new vehicles where the electrodynamic brake is pretty well working Once per year.

00:16:29: In some older vehicles where The composition is done by coaches and then the eddy brake Is not that good We talk about one replacement every three months.

00:16:43: A very short servicing period, actually?

00:16:45: It is but they are old vehicles and between brackets because the lifetime of a train is roughly thirty years even more... But yes!

00:16:57: They're still existing.

00:16:58: so maybe in next year's they will be scrapped.. So far it is like this.

00:17:09: You know, when the pads are replaced much often for us it's much better.

00:17:16: But still you're aimed to lower their total cost of ownership and produce more long lasting brake systems?

00:17:23: Absolutely!

00:17:24: That is a target also for environment.

00:17:27: Andreas already talked about Fixta and Flexstar being the braking pads but that has actually been new development within the Meeber Frixtec company because before developing the whole brake pads, you only deliver the braking elements.

00:17:42: And your an element provider also for different kinds of vehicles here at Mieber FreakTech Roy Tom.

00:17:48: So how did this come about?

00:17:52: Why do take to step in development?

00:17:55: I think two points came together.

00:18:00: First of all we have understand what is the Miebe way.

00:18:03: The Miebee way highly engineered components.

00:18:10: And these components make the difference in the application, so what we don't want to have is a commodity where you only can differentiate by price.

00:18:21: We want to differentiate performance and To do that You need an application engineer which is fully understanding the needs of customers.

00:18:37: it comes to the material development that you find a formulation or is fulfilling their requirements.

00:18:46: And then, we need process developers which develops robust and cost-efficient production processes.

00:18:55: This is how MIBA is successful in several markets and different applications.

00:19:03: We wanted try this also for railway Market and the real market is currently dominated by two big companies in these companies Providing the whole package so they are providing The brake disc.

00:19:19: They're providing the actuators there providing the friction pads And as a customer you have to take the whole Package, and it's always a compromise.

00:19:30: we from Weber We are independent can focus on the friction performance and then have a better performance like in competition.

00:19:41: Competitors are providing their whole system already, but now you're doing it the same?

00:19:46: What I want to say is that they provide the whole brake application for everything – the disc which is spinning, elements breaking or actuation.

00:19:57: so all of them cannot be the best.

00:20:03: We can only focus on the friction pad and therefore we are independent.

00:20:09: You don't have to work with a special disc, you do not need to use a special actuator because it gives us more freedom for design development.

00:20:22: So you adapt your braking pads individually depending upon their brake system?

00:20:32: Right!

00:20:33: But we are trying to scale solutions.

00:20:36: We don't want to develop for each customer a unique solution, so we have our modular system and we're calling it Fix & Flexster.

00:20:46: but of course we have to customize little bit to guarantee the scaling... ...the economic scaling of the product.

00:20:57: This is as well related with competition and to the wish of the customer, to reduce the TCO.

00:21:04: The Total Costs Of Ownership And what Andreas has explained clearly from a technical point-of-view as reflection in business.

00:21:14: If you put into shoes one customer which is obliged to purchase A complete breaking system by One single company They cannot deviate from that.

00:21:26: Clearly price is fixed.

00:21:29: But as soon the vehicle is produced and it goes into maintenance, then you have to purchase breakpads.

00:21:36: The customer is obliged to purchase the pads from that customer.

00:21:41: Then price starts rising up.

00:21:45: And here's where MIBA is required by market To be a new supplier A new player independent Because we offer to train operators a product alternative for the maintenance of vehicles, then they are happy to introduce us and we can have our market share taking it from these big companies which already in the market increasing into next years.

00:22:15: But definitely... We're a startup!

00:22:18: You know?

00:22:19: We've founded this team And the friction division is since nineteen seventy five but the railway that's really a startup character.

00:22:31: Small team, new markets and products we are shaping in the future also of MIBA.

00:22:39: So you're start-up within an existing company?

00:22:43: Yes!

00:22:43: How does it work together with your other colleagues... ...and structure everything with the organization ?

00:22:50: We can imagine there is some tension.

00:22:53: The people I used to have standards to have processes, well-defined roles the interfaces.

00:23:02: that is how professional companies work.

00:23:06: In the regular business we started only with two or three people and also have Roberto on board Italian.

00:23:16: bring his knowledge in.

00:23:17: it's not always easy but in daily work.

00:23:28: And we are building up the organization, so we're getting more and more standardised but definitely it's challenging... But we are mastering quite well I would say!

00:23:41: Yeah

00:23:41: that is a funny story because if everything goes okay then all will be flat.

00:23:48: Here you have challenges to fight things to solve problems pepper into the sauce that makes the job good to be done.

00:24:02: So you're kind of the pepper in the sauce of Meeba Friksek, making life or business more exciting here at Roy Thom?

00:24:12: How about the other sites off Meebah?

00:24:15: we have... Meebah has sites globally.

00:24:18: do you collaborate friction division sites of Mieberg globally?

00:24:30: Well, we have a friction division in India that is not yet producing friction elements for the railway.

00:24:41: But India is anyway one country which is under development from that point of view and as well some projects on the pipeline not yet consolidated, but we expect in the next future between two or three years to be able to provide breaking pads as well for the Indian market and having a company in India which should be able In general, worldwide.

00:25:24: that's the only idea I can put on the table because in general the Railway is a very difficult market and very static.

00:25:38: So MIBA FreakTech will be approved for production of the pads, MIBA FreekTech will produce the pads And the Railways Market isn't allowing easily to change the production site because of the rules of the railway.

00:25:56: As I say this very simple example, if you look at one pad set You talk about a size of two A-four paper sheets.

00:26:10: This is breaking eleven tons of braked mass.

00:26:13: and If you try to think that you can understand how important it is.

00:26:22: And from the component itself, The complete quality production engineering system is consolidated and frozen.

00:26:33: And the railway market doesn't allow you to change it without rebuilding up the homologation process.

00:26:42: This is a cost that normally nobody takes because It isn't worth

00:26:47: this.

00:26:47: established processes will go Europe to the growing market.

00:26:54: And our duty is to fill the pipeline with new applications, and therefore Railway so important for us because it's a growing pillar of the FrickTech.

00:27:09: I can imagine that India... It's huge market!

00:27:16: The Indian railway will develop in next couple years greatly.

00:27:21: India is still a huge market in railway, but the difference that their markets are basically low speed.

00:27:31: And in the low-speed organic brake pads are applied because energies aren't too big to give the necessity of sintered materials.

00:27:44: Only today india is developing as well there high speeds And this is where MIBA could enter providing sintered materials.

00:27:58: If we look the entire railway business of India, that's already huge.

00:28:02: it's full of vehicles and network but there are high speeds which only entering now in their networks Which is interesting for you.

00:28:15: What about

00:28:15: North America?

00:28:17: North America is, I would say as well like India because in north america the speed in general is up to two hundred kilometers per hour and they always has been working with organic materials.

00:28:32: Still only now there are some new vehicles for New Jersey Transit which are supposed to run upto two hundred fifty kilometers an hour.

00:28:43: I learned that the first vehicle was entering into service one month ago.

00:28:53: For us, it's a new market potential but probably now is a bit early to push for that.

00:29:01: But once you're in a customer relationship with a client... That is very long-term business right?

00:29:08: You told us trains or vehicles operating for thirty years, some maybe more.

00:29:16: So once you have the foot in the door... Can you see that English?

00:29:21: You're kind of there to support and supply the braking systems for next couple decades.

00:29:27: Absolutely!

00:29:29: That's the power of the railway market And this is why we are addressing it.

00:29:36: To enter one project really difficult In general, we have a couple of years off development with roughly ten milestones and each milestone can be a no-go.

00:29:53: So you can imagine the tension which increases.

00:29:57: where are in eight or nine or the tenth stage... ...and you find that no go!

00:30:03: You're scrapping two years' activity easily but we know how to move.

00:30:10: That's the good stuff.

00:30:13: After that, when you enter into one vehicle then your in and following what Andreas told us we are not developing a cheaper product We're developing the best products.

00:30:28: Then normally customers.

00:30:30: it is my experience to stay with them forever Twenty, thirty years.

00:30:38: So depending on what you do so it's then is not easy as it is seen.

00:30:48: You have to fulfill the production time delivery in-time Always in quality and doing it for a long period.

00:30:55: It's not that easy Everybody knows but Miva has enough experience To Do That.

00:31:02: As I understood Miva Is A Company That Is Constantly Developing Fixed.

00:31:07: our flexer was one big step within Meeber Freak Sack.

00:31:12: Do you already think about the next steps?

00:31:15: What is happening in the

00:31:16: future?".

00:31:17: There's a strong focus on environment, on brake dust especially when it comes to cities with high population.

00:31:27: The air quality is important for people and there are some ideas.

00:31:36: And for example, for automotive which is normally the front runner.

00:31:41: There's coming by November a new legislation of the European Union saying that brake dust is limited and with todays brakes you cannot fulfill these requirements anymore.

00:31:59: so you have to look for alternatives.

00:32:04: it could be some filter systems, but the best would be to avoid dust from the beginning.

00:32:15: And therefore you could use a capsulated brake maybe running with an oil.

00:32:22: then all the brake dust which is occurring will be in the air and not at the end of our lung.

00:32:31: An automotive legislation is driving innovation.

00:32:36: So currently we are working on concepts for serious, automotive and already the pre-development areas in trucks.

00:32:47: And in railway thinking.

00:32:49: is that direction

00:32:51: so much more to come from you?

00:32:53: a frictec

00:32:55: hopefully

00:32:56: not only from the friction material as well from design because of environmental issues looking for recyclability.

00:33:07: So, in our design there is the chance that next future once the brake pad is worn we could think to reuse backplate and replacing only friction element reducing carbon footprint on one side.

00:33:28: On the other side, for example looking at a fixed star.

00:33:31: where this process could not be done we are cooperating with one company that should be able to recycle and re-generate new products using scrap brake pads.

00:33:50: Again reducing carbon footprint which is becoming more and more important as well in the public tenders, end up with requirements of customers.

00:34:02: As far I understand that it's not only important to be true experts material engineering and application engineering development of these breaking pads you also have to provide security so your break paths truly work.

00:34:24: Meeba's biggest test bench is standing right here in Roytown.

00:34:30: Tell me a little more about that and the functions?

00:34:34: Well, we are talking about Hercules.

00:34:38: That's the name of our new baby.

00:34:39: Big name for her!

00:34:42: That's an important message from the company because it's big investment friction industry.

00:34:57: There is no chance from the business point of view that we can be a leader in

00:35:24: globally, because we have to test the application of our customers.

00:35:30: And for the railway business it's the same.

00:35:32: so invested in Hercules and that is really biggest one.

00:35:36: what do you have?

00:35:37: So can imagine its fourteen meters long Its four metres width.

00:35:44: We also have an electric motor which is accelerating the inertia Which simulates mass of train and then you're breaking down the masses.

00:35:57: And in total, we have twenty tons of rotating mass which is huge!

00:36:05: We are spinning it more than two thousand rpm Which is simulating to four hundred kilometers per hour.

00:36:13: There we see six hundred degrees plus.

00:36:17: I'm always impressed by seeing forces of these rotating masses, which breaks down by our component.

00:36:28: How long does it take to full stop then?

00:36:30: One

00:36:34: very high speed vehicle running at three hundred and fifty kilometers per hour must stop in around about three point five kilometers.

00:36:45: that's the stopping distance.

00:36:48: impressive Roberto, you've been with Miba now for a bit more than two years.

00:36:53: What is it that you like best about the company?

00:36:57: Well, Miba is kind of family.

00:37:02: In my previous job I started in a company which was very similar to Miba Quite the same dimensions, familiar-owned And when i went to work For me this feeling was the same.

00:37:17: So going into my family Then the situation, unfortunately in the following twenty years changed.

00:37:26: Some multinational companies arrived and they acquired some other companies who took leadership.

00:37:35: And at that moment my happiness was broken because you know... The way of managing a company is completely different.

00:37:44: So coming here to MIBA I read found again, same feeling I had twenty years ago when i started working and this is the things that more appreciate in MIBA.

00:37:59: Clearly it's anyway a structural company multinationals.

00:38:03: so we have bureaucracy as well which you know normally complicated stuff.

00:38:10: but uh...I like How

00:38:16: about you, Andreas?

00:38:17: You've had a little more experience than Roberto so far.

00:38:21: For me it's the combination.

00:38:24: there are several factors.

00:38:26: What I really like is this freedom to perform.

00:38:31: We have a vision we have a mission and with strategy And as long as your following the strategy... ...you can do everything what you think its right way.

00:38:48: And also the product is fascinating.

00:38:53: It seems only a friction element, but at the end of day it's about comfort, breaking and acceleration so that the end customer can feel our products.

00:39:11: That great to see their impact.

00:39:18: national company.

00:39:19: So next week I'm in India, one month i will be in US so seeing the regional market just to work with people there To get insights.

00:39:33: you know it's kind of developing me also as a person and That's all embedded in upper Austria great living place here The structure of the company, family owned with things in decades and not a private equity on yearly based share.

00:39:57: That is definitely what I like here.

00:40:02: If people listening to us hear like that as well And are fascinating about both.

00:40:08: you talking about Meeba What would be best way To find out more about Mieba?

00:40:13: Freak Tech especially?

00:40:15: Internet.

00:40:17: And as I mentioned, we are a startup and also looking for people.

00:40:24: We're working together with universities.

00:40:28: last week opened Christian Doppler development project with the TU Graz.

00:40:36: so five year projects multiple students are working on that project expertise, but also to connect with people and we are hiring.

00:40:53: And when you have a job offer then we can select out of the pool.

00:40:59: Roberto Andreas thank you very much for that really interesting interview!

00:41:04: Thanks To You.

00:41:06: Thank You For Coming Together.

00:41:08: We Shape Technologies is for A Cleaner Planet.

00:41:15: I'm happy to tune in for the next episode.

00:41:18: Until then, see you and take care!