08 EN: Mirror Magic For High-Precision Optics - Amorphous Silicon Layers By Miba High Tech Coatings

00:00:00: This episode was translated from a German interview with AI.

00:00:25: It's actually a very technologically sophisticated process that we use.

00:00:29: You can imagine, when we coat the components atom by atom... ...that means we atomize our coating material and layer grows atom-by-atom.

00:00:39: Welcome to a new episode of Mieber Inside, the Miebertek podcast for all Mieba colleagues and anyone who is enthusiastic about technologies for a cleaner planet.

00:00:49: Here we talk about what you usually can't see – The technology inside engines trains ships wind turbines hydroelectric power plants power grids and much more.

00:00:58: Our experts from Miebot explain how our components help make our customers products & applications safer more reliable and more energy efficient.

00:01:08: And they also show why we are among the world leaders in many of these specialist areas.

00:01:14: Today's Mieber innovation is amorphous silicon coatings, which are high-tech coatings.

00:01:19: today Jürgen Bauer will tell you exactly what these are where the technology is used and What You Can Do With It.

00:01:26: He Is The Production Unit Leader For PVD Coatings Which Stands for Physical Vapor Deposition.

00:01:33: We Will Explain That Later.

00:01:34: Our second guest is Andreas Eder.

00:01:37: He leads the team that develops this type of high-tech coating.

00:01:40: By the way, MiBA high-tech coatings is the site that's best seen from the highway.

00:01:45: That because of the huge MiBA logo there!

00:01:49: It isn't but it does play a central role for certain components.

00:01:54: My name is Autrun Shandel.

00:01:56: I am delighted to guide you through this episode Jürgen and Andreas so we can get to know you better at the beginning.

00:02:05: How long have you both been with Mieber, Jurgen?

00:02:07: Since March twenty seventeen so almost nine years now.

00:02:10: And you Andreas!

00:02:12: Same here October twenty seventeen.

00:02:14: Did You actually know each other before?

00:02:15: Yes we're from the same working group From The University

00:02:18: Funny.

00:02:19: So you brought him along.

00:02:20: Andreas was Actually already Working Here at Miebe for his thesis.

00:02:23: Yes, the relationship with Meeba actually started during my thesis then continued during my doctorate and at some point you get comfortable.

00:02:30: And start working because you realize You get to play with really cool expensive big toys in the industry plus The knowledge you've acquired over the years is needed by someone.

00:02:40: so yes now I'm here

00:02:42: Nice!

00:02:43: And your obviously very happy.

00:02:44: So you met at university.

00:02:46: What did you two study?

00:02:48: Technical physics With a focus on material science.

00:02:52: Technical physics with a focus on energy and measurement technology.

00:02:56: What exactly do you do in your day-to-day work, Jürgen?

00:02:59: Do you decide what Andreas should develop or is it not quite that simple?

00:03:03: Well I hope that its our customers who decides which to be developed.

00:03:07: That they tell us what we should develop And not the production tells development.

00:03:11: It's something people need.

00:03:15: The application basically determines

00:03:18: HTC, as MiBAR high-tech coatings is known internally... ...is relatively small but very sophisticated and very specialised.

00:03:26: As we've already said how many people are there?

00:03:29: We have about one hundred employees at the site.. ..and all of them deal with coatings as their name suggests.

00:03:34: You deal with coatings that are designed to make things smooth as possible.

00:03:39: Mirrors also an issue in a way But very special mirrors.

00:03:43: Can you both still look at yourselves in a conventional mirror or do always see coating defects and no longer looking the mirror at all?

00:03:51: It depends on little time of day, it's more difficult than morning.

00:03:54: Because of their coating defects?

00:03:56: Well mostly because they image that we have seen before.

00:03:59: No joking aside We operate two completely different worlds.

00:04:02: Of course You can see the analogies.

00:04:05: If you only deal with defects In your job... ...you're quite happy when the bathroom mirror does what is done Showing you.

00:04:11: Jürgen, you already mentioned that as the name suggests... ...you deal with high-tech coatings.

00:04:16: But perhaps we should clarify something first?

00:04:19: Not all coatings are the same!

00:04:21: There're very different functions.

00:04:23: That's right.

00:04:24: When it comes to coatings We like distinguish between decorative and functional coatings.

00:04:40: So if you want a pretty coating for a door handle, You don't need to come.

00:04:43: That's not our focus

00:04:44: correct?

00:04:45: Your coatings fulfill very specific functions but those functions and the other functions covered by Meeber high-tech coating are completely different.

00:04:53: so you actually pursue Very very different goals depending on The component.

00:04:57: how can we imagine that?

00:04:58: Andreas?

00:04:59: Yes in principle A distinction is made between friction increasing And friction minimizing.

00:05:04: coating One makes it smooth and the Other Makes It rough.

00:05:08: We are in a team where the goal is to make the coatings extremely smooth.

00:05:13: And why do you need extremely smooth surfaces?

00:05:15: Let's bridge the gap to mirrors, if you have rough mirror like one of your bathroom for example it's basically piece-of glass with a coating on back.

00:05:24: If this glass weren't smooth but frosted

00:05:26: i.e.,

00:05:26: with a rough surface You wouldn't get much use out of the mirror which is why mirrors generally has a smooth surface.

00:05:32: That means depending upon where component used can improve It should either be extremely smooth, as it is in your case or increase the coefficient of friction.

00:05:43: I

00:05:44: would even go one step further and replace improving with making a possible in first place.

00:05:49: The function or component only works the way we want to do with a coating And without that often wouldn't work at all.

00:05:56: But improving also correct.

00:05:57: That means we can optimize functions.

00:06:01: Now we come to these amorphous silicon layers.

00:06:03: That sounds totally futuristic, what exactly does that mean?

00:06:07: Amorphous and crystalline structure is very technical.

00:06:10: I'd like to translate into something familiar.

00:06:13: So when you talk about crystalline structures You can imagine it as a group of soldiers standing in formation all holding together relatively well.

00:06:20: And amorphous structure is like a small group of kindergartners standing around an ice cream parlor, A wild and chaotic bunch where the one on left doesn't know what that's doing.

00:06:32: The army group only ever works as unit in this group of fifty people or so... ...and little kids can also move around individually!

00:06:40: That you're aiming for with your layers right?

00:06:42: Exactly, so at the end of day our layers are polished.

00:06:45: They have to be very smooth.

00:06:47: If I were to polish something crystalline i would remove an entire group of fifty soldiers from the army.

00:06:52: Then it gets relatively quiet.

00:06:54: But if one single child From this kindergarten group Would leave The rest is still loud and that's exactly what we're looking for.

00:07:01: That means back in technical world We make it possible To remove individual atoms form surface Which makes whole thing extremely smooth That only works with amorphous layers.

00:07:12: And this group of soldiers would tear a big hole in it, and if you tell one child that there's even better ice cream over there... ...and only THIS child runs over… It is still a very bustling group!

00:07:21: Exactly.

00:07:22: Group dynamics must not be allowed to develop but in principle.

00:07:26: Where are components that are refined or treated with amorpheus silicon-layers used?

00:07:31: We developed the coatings with customers from the semiconductor industry for many years – quite some time ago now.

00:07:37: However, it has become apparent that there are other areas of application for this technology.

00:07:42: In other words, Other people also want and need smooth surfaces.

00:07:45: You can imagine when you build a telescope perhaps for astronomy to observe the stars... ...you can also build this telescope out of mirrors And with these mirrors It is important have very smooth surface Because if they're too rough The light will not be reflected properly.

00:08:00: To stick with example of the bathroom mirror If were grainy or had a rough surface You would not able see yourself in it.

00:08:06: And that is precisely the goal there, to make these surfaces smooth.

00:08:10: Jürgen you mentioned the telescope.

00:08:12: That means everything that shines down from sky onto earth can be captured But thats only one way of interacting with space or capturing information From Space right?

00:08:22: Exactly we also build telescopes.

00:08:23: look in other direction.

00:08:28: That's where our coatings are used To achieve this smooth surface In mirror telescopes on aircraft and satellites for Earth observation.

00:08:35: Your components are also exposed to extreme conditions.

00:08:39: Many mebo-components are installed in places where they have function for a very long time under extreme loads such as plane bearings and turbines, when you can't just replace them every few months.

00:08:49: your extreme situation is precision.

00:08:52: that means... ...your challenge is make it smoothest possible And ensure the light hits it is transmitted accurately as possible and reflected exactly how it hit

00:09:03: Exactly.

00:09:03: This property, this reflection enables precisely that as you correctly describe it the smoothness of the surface and on a very small scale.

00:09:11: We are actually talking about roughness in range of nanometer.

00:09:15: to give you better idea what a nanometer is we have thought an example

00:09:19: Miibo now has somewhere around seven thousand five hundred employees they all standing at perfect row next each other.

00:09:26: So no nanometer forward No Nanometer back And if say that's our component then One MIBA employee moves forward less than a hair's breadth.

00:09:35: That is the kind of roughness we are talking about, so it actually unimaginable.

00:09:38: Very cool!

00:09:39: A very clear example Is that now the smoothest surface in world?

00:09:42: It certainly not the smoothiest surface and I think my colleague from development will confirm there still work to be done.

00:09:48: The surface when its perfectly polished is very smooth But off course.

00:09:52: We also struggle with defects And thats exactly our challenge To Work as cleanly As possible.

00:10:00: I believe there's still room to improve by a few tenths of percent, and that is our job.

00:10:05: What we may also need explain what you do with coatings isn't where the light hits There something else on top right?

00:10:11: In other words... You only prepare the primer

00:10:13: Yes!

00:10:13: And i'll jump in here.

00:10:15: If u say that brick layer building wall That would be component for us Which typically made of metal or ceramic Then plaster applied which will use this layer.

00:10:24: This plaster is relatively smooth And then the paint is applied on top, which looks nice and would be the actual reflective layer.

00:10:31: In other words we are the primer or base coat.

00:10:34: So the component is delivered to you.

00:10:36: You make this base coat, and then it goes to the customer who then coats with their mirror on its reflective surface.

00:10:42: The supply chains differ significantly but in principle yes that's how you can imagine it Jürgen!

00:10:47: You said subatomic range.

00:10:49: That's how smooth your primer is.

00:10:51: I imagined these two be very highly technical production.

00:10:54: How do even manage them?

00:10:56: What kind of technology behind?

00:10:58: what kind processes behind makes possible?

00:11:01: It is actually a very technologically sophisticated process that we use.

00:11:05: You can imagine, when you coat the components atom by atom this means that we atomize our coating material which is exactly what the term physical vapor deposition describes.

00:11:14: We atomise it at an atomic level and then atom-by-atom it settles on our components.

00:11:18: so the layer continues to grow atom-to-atoms Which allows us to achieve exactly what was said earlier This amorphous structure of the coating.

00:11:26: How can this material be applied atom by atom?

00:11:29: how can we imagine that the parts are blown away at subatomic or atomic level.

00:11:34: We bombard our coating materials with other atoms which causes us to atomize it so finely.

00:11:39: So like billiard balls

00:11:40: Exactly, like billiot balls

00:11:42: Very small billiards but basically play pool all day long.

00:11:46: Who wins?

00:11:46: Hopefully Us

00:11:47: For your customers who use these mirrors.

00:11:49: did you solutions make certain applications possible for first time Or they simply better?

00:11:55: now?

00:11:55: I would say both.

00:11:56: On the one hand, it makes things lighter easier and better.

00:11:59: we also enable shorter processing times.

00:12:02: when We talk about making Things possible i Would Say that's The Example i Mentioned at the Beginning in the Semiconductor Industry When It Comes to Making Things Better?

00:12:10: I would Say We're Talking About The Field of Telescopes.

00:12:13: That Means As Already Mention'd Everything That is a Lens In A Classic Telescope Can Also be Made as a Mirror With a Curved Surface.

00:12:20: Its Simply a Matter Of Making Things better Even If You Think of a Laser and the reflection of a laser on a mirror.

00:12:27: I would argue that our application improves the entire process for high-energy lasers as

00:12:31: well.".

00:12:32: And did customers approach you because they knew you were specialists in coatings, and very experts in surface technology?

00:12:38: Or was it an innovation that came from

00:12:40: you?".

00:12:41: As is so often the case at MIBA Structured Coincidence has played a major role.

00:12:45: You can find MIBA even where you wouldn't expect us to be but this structured coincidence then causes paths to cross.

00:12:52: That's how it has been in the past, and that's still is.

00:12:55: but we also have many ideas ourselves where this coating on these technology can be used.

00:12:59: We are specifically look for customers.

00:13:01: applications were believe make sense.

00:13:04: Are you only ones who do this or simply better than your competitors?

00:13:07: I

00:13:08: think overall could say very often about small quantities.

00:13:13: Miibo has a strong automotive background which actually exact opposite with high quantity what makes us stand out is simply the ability to combine that two.

00:13:22: That means we actually come with a claim of consistently high quality, and manage keep everything the same at a consistent high-quality for millions of units And you can also break it down into individual pieces so even longer intervals still do the same thing.

00:13:37: I

00:13:37: believe it is the combination of both worlds.

00:13:39: In large-scale production, people always say that whatever can go wrong will go wrong at some point and we take this knowledge with us to these comparatively small quantities and can apply there as well... ...I

00:13:49: think we've also succeeded in combining fine and gross motor skills And here too i'll use an analogy again.

00:13:55: Let's say we manage to be both surgeons and butchers at the same time And depending on what you need at the moment We serve both fields very well…in my opinion

00:14:03: Which one of you is which or are both surgeons?

00:14:06: I'm not entirely sure.

00:14:08: It depends on the task at hand.

00:14:09: as Andreas correctly said, sometimes we need one characteristic more and some times another.

00:14:15: And what's important for us other people who work in this whole environment they all have different backgrounds.

00:14:21: it precisely this mix that matters makes up to me.

00:14:25: Tell a little bit about your team.

00:14:27: You're not only ones there Working with amorphous silicon layers and you said, You all have different backgrounds.

00:14:35: What's that like?

00:14:36: Where do you all come from?

00:14:38: in my production department we Have a small team of employees who are highly specialized In this area.

00:14:42: they learned alongside us And our colleagues From the development Department during The Development phase and continue to Do so today.

00:14:49: They pick up a lot and can then actually implement it in production.

00:14:52: That means they are highly specialized in a wide variety of areas, And always participate with this focus that they can meet the high demands Of everything that comes up In this environment.

00:15:00: Are all physicists or skilled workers?

00:15:03: What did you study?

00:15:05: We mainly employ skilled workers With apprenticeship qualifications whom we train and educate internally on This specific topic.

00:15:11: You cannot learn at school so provide a lot of internal training.

00:15:15: That means that vocational training and academic education go hand in hand.

00:15:19: Both are necessary!

00:15:20: We need both, thats the mix I mentioned earlier with different backgrounds... ...and also the example of Andreas with The Surgeon & The Butcher.

00:15:27: What makes your team so special?

00:15:29: why is you're team so unique?

00:15:30: i would say it's a large team that the key point and I think what we like is that we are extremely well connected.

00:15:37: in reality.

00:15:37: its not a world that exists side by side but together on.

00:15:40: that's what make us successful.

00:15:42: It exactly this mixture of production development working on the same topics at the same time always give example to be in production have great opportunity, pick up things already during developement.

00:15:52: work together learn something.

00:15:54: On the other hand, development can also learn something from production even in the development phase.

00:15:59: And that's exactly the synergy we create with our two teams who really work together on this product and technology.

00:16:04: You are probably quite the specialist within high-tech coatings.

00:16:08: Do you have a nickname?

00:16:09: None I'm aware of.

00:16:10: If someone wants to annoy me they call me Doctor But otherwise i think my first name is enough.

00:16:17: Actually same here...I don't know if any.

00:16:19: I never made it to a doctorate, so i'm probably the colleague he's referring

00:16:48: Not in a ranking, but the second ones who have joined Mieber.

00:16:51: So if our listeners are now fascinated by this topic and would like to find out more what is best thing for them?

00:16:58: Well... If someone really wants know there's now vocational training on surface technology with focus of thin film or plasma technology.

00:17:05: that will be most intensive option.

00:17:07: otherwise still lots information on home page including contact addresses.

00:17:12: we're always happy talk.

00:17:13: Do you actually work with universities on research projects or theses, Or anything like that?

00:17:19: Absolutely.

00:17:19: We have a broad network of external partners That includes different Universities technical colleges and institutes.

00:17:25: Of course there are always opportunities for collaboration There too And we make good use of them.

00:17:29: Dear Jürgen dear Andreas off course The seconds.

00:17:32: thank You very much For being my guests here.

00:17:33: Thank you for this extremely exciting episode.

00:17:36: Your welcome!

00:17:38: Together we are creating technologies for a cleaner planet.

00:17:41: Thank you very much for listening, dear listeners!

00:17:43: Feel free to follow this podcast on the platform of your choice until next time take

00:18:16: care.