04 EN: Keep cool - Vacuum Brazed Cold Plates By Miba Cooling Austria

00:00:00: This episode was translated from a German interview with AI.

00:00:31: Our experts from MiBAR explain how our components contribute to making products and applications safer, more reliable and more energy efficient.

00:00:41: And they also show why we are world leaders in many of these specialised areas of technological development.

00:00:48: Today were talking about a technology that some us may already be familiar with Brazing.

00:00:53: Some you might have even done soldering or brazing in craft lessons at school.

00:00:57: But the brazing we're talking about today isn't that simple, it's actually vacuum brazing.

00:01:02: So what is used for?

00:01:04: What gets vacuum-brazed and where?

00:01:06: Spoiler alert!

00:01:07: It is produced in a furnace but will get to that later.

00:01:10: Three specialists from Meebar Kooling Austria who are my guests today will answer that.

00:01:15: First Andreas Frumann.

00:01:16: he's the production manager.

00:01:18: welcome

00:01:18: Hello.

00:01:20: Then there is Samuel Walner.

00:01:21: He's specialist in vacuum bracing technology And knows the ovens down into smallest detail.

00:01:28: And Stephanie Poelzel, she heads the supply management at MiBAR Cooling Austria and therefore has direct contact with customers and suppliers.

00:01:36: Hello it is nice to have you here as well!

00:01:38: Hello

00:01:39: thankyou.

00:01:40: My name is Autrun Shandel & I'm happy to guide through this podcast.

00:01:45: To begin we'd like get know a little better.

00:01:47: so her are few quick questions...to each of u in turn How long have been with MiBar?

00:01:53: Andreas let's start.

00:01:55: I've been with MIBA Cooling Austria for almost nine years

00:02:11: now.

00:02:22: Great.

00:02:23: What about you, Samuel?

00:02:24: As Andreas mentioned at the beginning he is not the longest serving member here.

00:02:28: that's me in this case.

00:02:29: I've been with the company for sixteen years now.

00:02:32: i started in research and development as a lab technician.

00:02:35: For a few years i was responsible for Development Management At The Site but because of interest And the need for A Process Technician In The VB Area Which Means In Vacuum Brazing...I'm Now Focused Entirely On That!

00:02:46: ...And I'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR ABOUT A YEAR NOW.

00:02:49: You've all Been With Miba For Very Long Time Actually nine years, fourteen years, sixteen years.

00:02:54: So there must be something about this company.

00:02:56: What do you like most about it?

00:02:58: Steffi maybe we can start with you.

00:03:00: Yes what I like is definitely that its very diverse especially in my position.

00:03:05: i deal with suppliers and customers but also connected throughout the company as interfaces in sales & production.

00:03:13: It's just fun to work with a team And I think that's the most important thing.

00:03:16: Enjoying your work, making progress and learning about new technologies.

00:03:20: There is always something cool happening every day.

00:03:23: The company based in Ligest Stereo Is it also an advantage for you to be close where you live?

00:03:29: Exactly!

00:03:30: For me its two minutes to work so definitely a big advantage.

00:03:36: I'm about fifteen minutes away, so proximity is definitely a factor.

00:03:40: But it's also the variety in what we do.

00:03:43: The product portfolio has changed so much over the years that were always developing and restructuring.

00:03:49: with our partnership with Meeba Electronics Slovenia We can now fully focus on vacuum-brazed heat sinks.

00:03:55: Were getting more interesting and larger series which lets us invest new technologies like automation A new washing system And then you furnace.

00:04:03: That means the day is challenging and varied for you

00:04:12: all.

00:04:31: Very nice.

00:04:32: So you build vacuum-braised heat sinks, as we've already mentioned and these are brazed or finished in a brazing furnace.

00:04:39: And before we get to this brazing furnace We need to take a step back Or actually even forward To the end product.

00:04:45: Where can you find such heat sinks?

00:04:47: Wherever large amounts of electricity are transported and high power output is required, heat generated must be dissipated.

00:04:54: To give an example we use our heatsinks in the frequency converters of electric train systems at wind farms for transporting electricity from offshore power plants.

00:05:03: So they're used together with power electronics right

00:05:06: Exactly.

00:05:07: And those need to be cooled!

00:05:09: There are several ways to cool such switchgear substations or other equipment, you also make other types of heat sinks like air coolers or heat pipes.

00:05:17: Samuel what is the advantage of vacuum-brazed heatsinks?

00:05:21: I'd say that biggest advantage is their extremely long lifespan.

00:05:24: we're talking more than twenty years.

00:05:27: they're all so very robust when it comes to internal pressures and importantly They can dissipate a lot energy in a small area.

00:05:34: So wherever you have high currents, you get high power losses and those need to be managed.

00:05:39: And when it comes to reliability like with offshore wind turbines where you can't just go out and replace a part in the middle of the sea It's crucial that these components work year after year.

00:05:49: so You could say this is world champion among heat sinks.

00:05:53: Is that fair assessment?

00:05:55: Yes I'd say its accurate.

00:05:56: Are there specific cases?

00:05:58: were technology really only option?

00:06:01: You mentioned offshore wind farms.

00:06:02: Are there other places where only vacuum-braised heat sinks will do?

00:06:07: In some applications, the installation space is very limited and especially in those cases... ...the vacuum brazed heat sinks are ideal because they offer high cooling performance inside spaces.

00:06:17: Steffi how does that work with customers?

00:06:20: I assume there are different models of heat sinks.

00:06:22: A train probably needs something different than an offshore wind farm.

00:06:26: How does the collaboration with the customer work.

00:06:28: Do they come to you with a problem Or do you suggest solutions?

00:06:32: Well, both scenarios exist.

00:06:33: It's always a solution we develop together with the customer.

00:06:36: Of course it often happens that the customer already has an existing concept or at least knows where the heat sink will be installed but The underlying structure of the structure within the heatsink is then designed simulated and tested by us.

00:06:49: Basically We only offer custom solutions.

00:06:52: Every customer gets a product tailored to their needs.

00:06:55: Our designers & engineers work closely With the customer from very beginning.

00:06:59: A quick question about quantities.

00:07:01: So if these are such customized solutions...

00:07:04: Orders can range from just one or two units for samples up to tens of thousands per year, For a single type.

00:07:10: You already mentioned that all colleagues From MIBA Cooling Austria Are working together from the start To finish.

00:07:16: When new product is developed What disciplines on team?

00:07:19: What qualifications do you need to work here And how does it benefit you To have people different backgrounds?

00:07:26: I think it starts with technology and goes all the way to business roles.

00:07:29: For example, i'm currently studying industrial economics part-time which is helping me a lot.

00:07:34: We have colleagues in R&D from mechanical & electrical engineering backgrounds.

00:07:38: Samuel for example started in electrical engineering.

00:07:40: Right!

00:07:41: I started in Electrical Engineering learned the trade at vocational college And did further training...I joined The Company back then It was DAU In R&d.

00:07:50: working in the lab, setting up measurements and having a solid foundation in electrical engineering was essential.

00:07:56: I was able to do an apprenticeship alongside my job and studied electrical engineering for energy technology.

00:08:01: This let me dive deep into topics like EGPT's high-current transmission how wind turbines work etc.

00:08:08: And that of course helped me a lot but it also helped the company because its'a two way street.

00:08:12: On one hand you learn alot at school That can apply on the company But other direction you can simply bring a lot of experience from the company back to school, to gain much better understanding.

00:08:24: What did you study at Technical College?

00:08:26: At Technical College I studied technical computer science and electronics but then switched to mechanical engineering production technology at university.

00:08:34: How do these different backgrounds help

00:08:36: even today especially now where so automation software training in computer engineering has been very helpful.

00:08:44: So if someone feels like they're in the wrong school You always find away.

00:08:48: The path is always the right one.

00:08:49: You can take a different direction, but what you have learned stays with you and will also be

00:08:54: useful.".

00:08:56: Very good!

00:08:57: So let's move on to vacuum brazing – it's very specialised technology in Liegeist Stereo, right?

00:09:03: Vacuum brazing is a very special technology….

00:09:05: …and not common even for aluminium parts.

00:09:08: There are other methods as well.

00:09:10: To be quite honest they aren't environmentally friendly And they cannot deliver the same quality.

00:09:15: Vacuum brazing itself, as I've already mentioned is a very clean technology because the parts are brazed almost exclusively under the protective atmosphere of a vacuum.

00:09:24: This means no oxygen reaches the components preventing oxidation.

00:09:28: therefore No additives like flux or needed and flux Is usually very toxic which is something we naturally want to avoid.

00:09:35: so you have two parts that are soldered Braised together

00:09:39: exactly.

00:09:40: We have a milled part where the cooling channels are created And a lid.

00:09:44: The lid is specially treated.

00:09:46: It has a very thin layer of solder rolled onto it and that's what bonds in the process, permanently connecting the lid to the base plate.

00:09:53: What temperature does the brazing furnace reach?

00:09:55: Almost six hundred degrees Celsius.

00:09:58: That means the brazeing layer melts and joins these two parts

00:10:01: Exactly!

00:10:02: The parts are clamped together on the brazin machine To ensure very good contact between cover & the base And components then soldered at around six hundred degree.

00:10:11: But

00:10:12: how can we picture a brazing furnace?

00:10:14: How big is it,

00:10:15: actually?!

00:10:15: A brazing furnaces like that fills entire rooms.

00:10:18: I'd say the most recently acquired brazing system Is roughly fifteen to twenty meters long and four metres wide Including all of necessary peripheral equipment.

00:10:26: And there's vacuum inside!

00:10:28: Is that safe?

00:10:29: Working with such huge component

00:10:31: The vacuum itself isn't dangerous at all.

00:10:34: It just necessary for process.

00:10:36: You imagine oven as very large chamber Equipped heating elements Electric heating that bring the components up to brazing temperature and the vacuum is essentially like a protective gas, an airless space which prevents oxidation of the components.

00:10:51: I've heard the brazing chambers need to be cleaned... ...and that's not as safe as i thought.

00:10:55: Perhaps you'd like to answer Andreas or Samuel?

00:10:58: Regular maintenance is required.

00:11:00: The brazing chamber is removed every three years or so.

00:11:03: The oven has internal components that are taken out And residues mainly magnesium Are cleaned away.

00:11:10: Magnesium burns very hot and is quite flammable, so you have to be careful.

00:11:14: I think to illustrate this... ...you can compare it with the sparklers we used on Christmas trees because it's essentially magnesium.

00:11:20: It starts to burn when exposed to slight heat or sparks And even impossible to put out.

00:11:25: So not entirely without risk.

00:11:28: Speaking of ovens You already mentioned The largest brazing furnace is fifteen meters long Or was it twelve metres?

00:11:34: The whole area Including peripherals Is that big?

00:11:38: The brazing system itself has internal dimensions of about three metres by one metre.

00:11:43: That might not sound huge, but it's still the largest brazing oven in

00:11:46: Europe.".

00:11:47: So the largest-brazing furnace in Europe is located right in the middle of Ligist, Styria!

00:11:53: that's quite something you probably wouldn't guess if you were just driving by and what I find particularly nice Is that you give your brazing furnaces names.

00:12:01: What's the name of the largest one?

00:12:03: The Largest One is called Donatella.

00:12:05: All our brazing furnaces have been given women's names, I'm not sure how that tradition started.

00:12:09: So this oven is called Donatella and it starts with a D!

00:12:12: You said all your ovens has names.

00:12:14: what are the others called?

00:12:15: We started with Anna – Our smallest system in two thousand ten.

00:12:19: Then Bertha came in twenty sixteen followed by Cecilia In two thousand twenty three.

00:12:25: we're already looking forward to Amelia.

00:12:27: Is It Already in Production or just waiting in The Wings?

00:12:30: And the special thing about Donatella is that you didn't just order it from the supplier, You co-designed it.

00:12:36: and for a specific reason... ...you already acquired this knowhow with Cecilia, The Third Oven.

00:12:41: Please tell us the story of how this happened.

00:12:44: Yes!

00:12:44: The third brazing furnace, the Cecilia had actually kind have been with us many years.

00:12:49: We had our first brazing system in two thousand ten.

00:12:51: But to determine which Brazing System we needed.. ..the Furnace Supplier at the time conducted preliminary tests….

00:12:57: …and these were carried out precisely on Cecilia.

00:12:59: This is a brazing system that was located in Malta back then.

00:13:03: In twenty-twenty two, the owner asked if we would be interested in buying it and we did!

00:13:08: It was smart move

00:13:09: And you got equipment yourselves?

00:13:11: Yes I was lucky enough to be there Since i trained as an electrician... ...I was first choice to help dismantle the furnace.

00:13:19: You get see every detail.

00:13:20: All components are installed How they interact with each other Simply gain deeper understanding of technology itself.

00:13:28: How long does it take to disassemble and reassemble such a furnace?

00:13:32: There are probably thousands of parts.

00:13:34: We didn't break down into tiny pieces, just enough for container shipping about fifty large parts.

00:13:40: Dismantling took about week-and-a-half And we had ten people working on it.

00:13:44: After the system was delivered to us It underwent refurbishment.

00:13:47: The oven dates back to two thousand.

00:13:49: So mechanical structure is still fine But software needed updating.

00:13:53: In very close coordination with the oven manufacturer, we essentially developed a new concept for what the software should look like.

00:13:59: And this helped us a lot in the subsequent selection of the software for the brazing system Donatella because were already so involved in subject

00:14:07: matter.".

00:14:07: So basically Cecilia Plus you've upgraded the system?

00:14:11: Exactly!

00:14:11: Cecilia became Cecilia plus and all lessons learned used to refine.

00:14:15: Donatello I think now got some really top notch technology.

00:14:19: That must have meant a lot of collaboration, not just with customers but also with suppliers especially for Cecilia.

00:14:25: How long did it take to plan and develop Donatella?

00:14:28: A decision like that to purchase a brazing furnace isn't made overnight.

00:14:32: first there has to be customer demand And you have to do the economic calculations because these systems aren't exactly cheap!

00:14:39: Then start your market screening who actually has potential to supply us?

00:14:44: The

00:14:46: Donatella Furnace, as we mentioned before is the biggest oven in Europe.

00:14:50: Why would you need such a big oven if you already have three others?

00:14:54: Well customer demand was there.

00:14:56: production volumes have increased.

00:14:58: therefore the aim is to brace as many units as possible at once to minimize time.

00:15:03: on the other hand We've reached our limits with component size and that's also one of reasons for going bigger.

00:15:10: So, now you can produce multiple components at once and also larger ones because there's more space inside.

00:15:17: Exactly!

00:15:18: so we could now please correct me Samuel Produce heat sinks that are one point five meters long and eight hundred millimeters wide.

00:15:25: We couldn't do that before.

00:15:27: these coolers Are also used in trains hybrid trains That run on both diesel an electric power?

00:15:32: That means they have big batteries that need to be kept At a constant temperature.

00:15:36: so you need large cooling plates

00:15:37: Because the batteries are so big.

00:15:39: right

00:15:40: Yes, and from an economic point of view it is better to manufacture one large cooling plate for the customer than many small ones.

00:15:47: So you have more options now especially for trains.

00:15:49: on hybrid trains.

00:15:51: are there other possibilities?

00:15:52: thanks to Donatella?

00:15:53: Now we can meet customer demand without always working weekends or worrying about a furnace being out-of service.

00:15:59: We can braise twice as many units at once compared to Bertha, our previous largest oven.

00:16:04: so we have shorter lead times and higher production volumes.

00:16:07: How long does the whole process take from start-to-delivery?

00:16:11: So

00:16:11: if the material is already in house and the cooler is ready for series production it takes about eight weeks from start to finish preprocessing bracing final processing and assembly.

00:16:21: So customers have to wait about eight week.

00:16:24: I imagine that you need a very trusting customer supplier relationship Right?

00:16:29: Absolutely.

00:16:30: We have a very good customer relationship on time.

00:16:32: delivery is very important to us, not only for our company but also for our customers.

00:16:36: we also have to be flexible because requirements can change during those eight weeks!

00:16:41: We're in the project business so things can move forward or get postponed.

00:16:45: that means we need good communication and strong relationships with both customers and suppliers.

00:16:50: all the raw materials have to arrive on time too.

00:16:53: A little peek into The Crystal Ball.

00:16:55: You already mentioned it, Andreas.

00:16:57: What's now possible thanks to Donatella and what might become even more possible with a potential Emilia?

00:17:12: We want to reliably supply our existing customers with high quality products.

00:17:21: I also think that there's a lot of potential in areas such as data centers, especially with AI and digitalization.

00:17:27: For anyone who is curious where can they find you?

00:17:30: Apart from Ligest Where Can They Learn More?

00:17:32: You

00:17:32: can find information on our website but also on LinkedIn or your welcome visit us at our location in Ligist.

00:17:39: Just give us the call first.

00:17:40: we would be happy.

00:17:41: show around

00:17:42: Wonderful.

00:17:43: Thank you so much, dear Andreas, dear Steffi and Samuel for being here today!

00:17:48: Thank you all for this fascinating conversation.

00:17:51: together we are creating technologies of a cleaner planet.

00:17:54: thank also dear listeners for tuning in.

00:17:56: please follow the podcast on your favorite platform until next episode take

00:18:13: care.